Dungeon 7 Turn 47
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After dropping his eggs and spear to make room, Kamau wades past the flytraps, taking 1 damage on the way, and opens the chest behind them. Inside he finds a set of pipes, a simple musical instrument that he nonetheless has no idea how to play. He then walks back to the right side of the flytraps so he doesn’t get hit by them again next turn.
Macadamia and Lohk meet up by the stalk to trade rings.
Ricki goes back to the treehouse and picks the final carrot.
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PIPES
Tool
When used to play a song, gives one enemy in the room a 20% chance to miss its attacks that turn, or a 60% chance if used as part of a Musical ability.
Weight 1, Cost 15
Lohk: go down, drop shield at the base of the stalk, pickup 2 tomatoes.
Mac: move one screen down, pick an onion at the same time as the others.
Kamau: pick two onions with your gardening gloves at the same time as the others, then move upstairs.
Ricki:return to underground, drop carrot and onion in pile near base of stalk, equip hide armor and magma shield, pick one onion at the same time as the others
Just continuing thisnameismeta’s framework from last turn.
Credit to him, of course.
To clarify, everyone should have enough armor to withstand the smell of their respective onions, and no explosions should occur thanks to gardening gloves.
I feel like this is the worst of both worlds. If it turns out that the gloves don’t work the way we’re hoping, then we’ll get onion explosions which could kill Molly and Daisy. If they do work the way we’re hoping, we might as well let Kamau soak a few damage and save Ricki and Mac’s actions for other things.
We just checked, the gloves do work the way we hope.
That is good. In that case, there’s still no reason to have Kamau do 2 picks instead of 3.
It would do 4 damage to Kamau. If we plan on having him grab the rope from the treehouse and also interpose the corn knight later we don’t want him to have no hp.
I did my math wrong >w>
That is very ambitious, though… How many turns are you planning on staying?
Well, last turn the plan that predicted us staying until t53 was the one voted on…
I will remark though, that we still have the flexibility to just pick everything up next turn and leave at the top of t50 if we wish
Also, we want to conserve some kamau hp for getting the rope…
We might want to have Ricki drop an onion in the basement instead of the arrows, because it’ll leave a full stack available there for consolidation when she runs off. Same for the carrot – we want to leave it with the stack of 4 down below so we have two stacks of 5.
Done
Hide armour and magma shield each have a weight of 2, sum: 4. When Ricki drops the carrot and onion, she needs to additionally move two of her items to Molly to be able to wear hide armour and magma shield.
Oh yeah, we still have to spell that out at this stage, right?
I will post a new comment
Thanks for picking up on this.
Should specify that Ricki is storing wand and potato in Molly in the meantime to allow for equipping the bat hide and Magma shield. Not the pet egg.
I just did some math and it turns out we can still get Mammoth loot post-50 using only 4 actions(plus trading and getting into position) over 2 turns.
I know this sounds too good to be true, but hear me out please, I’ve based this only on known facts which will be listed as I go. Feel free to correct me if I’ve got anything wrong.
The idea is:
–T1–
-Kamau, with +4 atk from rings and the swiftblade, attack Mammoth after walking to its right.
-Anyone else shoot it with bow from balcony.
Kamau will take 1 damage in return but this is 100% safe. Both our attackers are in different areas so the mammoth can only hit 1 target no matter what and thus will not “look a way around” to hit the ranged attacker.
I’m fairly sure chickens don’t charge forward at targets to attack if we don’t bother them, we’ve seen this multiple times with how unlike tomatoes, chickens don’t red “!” us when we enter the room, meaning we can sit in their vision without being attacked.
Moreover, the chickens would have attacked Lohk on turn 42 if they were inclined to do so. Therefore, Kamau can safely use the ladder to reach Mammoth’s ground floor(someone can hold torch to keep Potatobeast passive, not an action). If you don’t believe this, we have dauntless to make sure he lives no matter what, we can just abort the kill if it triggers.
Mammoth takes 5+5-4=6 damage, leaving it with 24hp.
–T2–
Both our attackers retreat 1 room to the left. Mammoth can only follow since it’s the only screen it can rampage to since it lack a listed Mov>1 unlike the undead knight.
Mammoth can ONLY attack chickens in this room since we know from lens it “hit as many targets as [it] can”. We know from turn 0 dialogue that anything it sees is a target.
-Kamau stay near right side of the floor and attack Mammoth as it goes past to attack chickens. We can have a torch holder to keep him accurate and potatobeast passive.
-Bow user shoot Mammoth from ladder as it goes under and past to attack chickens.
This keeps our characters out of Mammoth’s attack area. We know it doesn’t have floor-wide or screen-wide AoE because those have specific wording (see Salamander or Undead Knight description).
Mammoth takes 5+5+19(chickens)-4=25 damage, killing it. All chickens die from Mammoth’s area attack too.
Can someone very familiar with mechanics verify I didn’t forget something in this idea please? thisnameismeta?
The loot should be way more rewarding than anything else left in this dungeon.
As for RP/moral objections, I’m in support of having a character try to convince the Mammoth to leave with us so we can bring it with us/return it to farmers while it’s docile before we start kill plan.
If it refuses, then we know it will get killed anyway since intermission 18 tells us empire will come by to clear and take everything from this dungeon.
This is the same reason looting the produce isn’t considered stealing from the farmers. Everything we leave behind is left to the empire.
Plus, its affected by Dungeon Madness which will keep getting worse. Would you prefer putting it down now or let it slowly lose its mind until the empire comes by and slaugther it like the rust monster in the Kobold Warrens?
I would prefer to just leave after we get veggies and carrots.
This feeling is based on roleplay: I do t want to kill docile animals for the sake of loot
And also we have had many surprises this dungeon that haven’t been warned about like roaming chickens, and the defense debuff. I’d rather take this as a solid win rather than push our luck any further
I’ve adressed the roleplay aspect in my last paragraph, that animal is already as good as dead between the Dungeon Madness and the incoming Empire unless it agrees to follow us out. Like a raccon with rabies. But yes, we should take some precautions if we go for it, such as not doing it on exactly turn 50 just in case the debuff is not -5/-5.
I still have moral objections.
First of all, we don’t know when the Empire will turn its attention to this dungeon (if ever). It could have been a general statement in Intermission 18. I seem to recall that our chars came into this area explicitly because there is less Empire presence here than in the city. (And in the city, at least one of the dungeons – perhaps the abandonned chapel dungeon? – was rumored to have been there for quite a long time, iirc. something along the lines of months or years. Does someone happen to have a link hand to possibly confirm or disprove this, please?) Perhaps in the meantime whoever is the owner of the mammoth bull might be able to catch him/call him and bring him home after our chars leave the dungeon, now that he has been fed/pacified, so he might not live on “borrowed time”, after all.
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Secondly, to me, in this case (and generally, more often than not, even in games) it feels wrong to attack a creature that is not hostile (and the mammoth is not hostile, after getting some food). Yes, the loot is probably great, but most of us humans don’t go kill everyone and everything around us for whatever valuables they might have and/or just for the kicks in RL, either, and I for one am grateful for that and think it’s a good way of behaving by and large.
I like that our chars did save the drunk person who had been poisoned in the tavern dungeon, that we befriended Rusty in the kobold warrens rather than killing him (even if he was murdered shortly thereafter by the guard), that we knocked out the drunks in the tavern (at least in LSNs narration) instead of killing them and probably a lot of other “small” things that I can’t think of right now.
I wouldn’t want our chars to be mindless killers who annihilate everything and everyone unlucky enough to cross their paths (unless it has plot armour like the flies in the abandonned chapel allegedly had), just because they can.
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Thirdly, kind of a “meta” reason: If we are going to kill all creatures anyway, even though there was a more peaceful option available, where we could have simply by-passed the creature, LSN might stop offering such peaceful soltions to us altogether. And that in turn could mean that we will get into more stressful/challenging situations, because we cannot opt to pacify some (potential) enemy/creature, but have to fight it, on top of other stuff that was never meant to be optional to combat/weather (like the rising water in the sewer dungeon) in the first place. (Imagine for example having to fight the mammoth and have wandering enemies – like the drunks in the tavern – attack us as well/drive us towards the mammoth, on top of that). I honestly don’t want to have that option removed for good, just because we were too greedy.
I’m perfectly in accord with you on making friends over killing for loot and fully supported “feed the crows” plans a few turns back. It leads to more interesting story and is often just as rewarding. We made friends with the crows, they left peacefully and even gave us a token of appreciation. That is why I do want to try and save the Mammoth by convincing it to leave with us first.
But reality is, not everyone can be befriended and I want to keep our options open if this is the case here. Killing it after trying to save it and realizing it is past saving does not make us murderhobos.
As for the empire coming to this dungeon specifically instead of a general statement in intermission 18, we are already basing ourselves on the fact that it is 100% true to justify why taking the produce isn’t stealing from innocent farmers. Plus, dungeons “exist to kill people”(dungeon 2 turn 0) and get worse over time so it isn’t safe for farmers to come back for it and we can’t come back after leaving.
Regarding the “meta” reason, I think the opposite, actually. Like, “Aww, they tried to save it first but that wasn’t possible. Maybe I’ll let them make an extra friend instead of just a safe exit screen(“docile”) in similar situation when designing future dungeons.”
But this is all speculation anyway.
Well, you answered my moral objections, so I shall run the calculations later.
Okay, I’ve run the calc here.
Yeah, that is the probably intended way of killing the mammoth. We have conversed about thia before.
I do believe it will not be possible. Either because Manny will just up and leave the dungeon on his own or when prompted (if he hasn’t already), or because LSN will do funky stuff on t50, forcing us to leave.
But I do agree that if no funky stuff happens in t50 and Manny is described upon prompting as not leaving the dungeon ever, then its fate shall be the same as Rusty’s anyways.
I feel like this plan relies too heavily on a lot of assumptions.
Would the chickens not attack Kamau on the way out? We haven’t gotten a super definitive answer on that. Turn 42 they were just arriving on the screen, and may have double-moved, so it’s possible they couldn’t yet attack.
Does the mammoth not have an attack that can hit both Kamau and the balcony? It seems like that would be kinda unfair, but things seeming kinda unfair hasn’t stopped LSN before. Especially on fights we’re repeatedly warned are dangerous and optional.
Would the “as many targets as possible” setting have higher priority than the “attack whoever is closest” setting”, causing him to attack the littles instead of Kamau?
Would Manny go for the chickens, rather than Kamau or the littles?
Is there going to be something that will make staying on the map for any reason till turn 52 dangerous, like there very, very often is in Dungeon Eyes?
EDIT: I guess Dungeon eyes doesn’t like bullet points. Fixed formatting.
I admit the chicken not attacking Kamau part is not quite 100% confirmed, which is why there’s the dauntless backup just in case, but everything points to it being the case.
We have confirmed info on Mammoth attacks and behavior from lens, and know
its not screen wide or even floor-wide, just “area”, a group of nearby targets just like the sun sphere which uses the same wording. Plus, note how I’ve set only 1 little ranged attacker to be double-sure it won’t get attacked over Kamau on the first turn. And the “as many targets as possible” is confirmed information from lens so it WILL attack chickens since that is the most targets. I’m pretty sure lens can’t lie to us.
Special dungeon changes/event always happened on round turns or from us activating a dungeon element(bell in Chapel, turning in ring quest in Warrens, etc) so it would be quite unusual for turn 51-54 to be special.
It would be unusual for turn 51-54 to be special, but we have precedent for a bad thing to start on turn 50, but not reach us necessarily for a few turns. Example: The guards entering at the leftmost tile.
One more reason for this: Manny might destroy the coop, revealing bonus treasure.
So there’s still some unknowns that this plan relies on. The big one for me is we don’t actually know whether the mammoth will follow, and if it does whether it will attack the chickens. I agree that it would target the chickens if the chickens were fighting it, but it’s unclear to me that that would immediately happen. We might need to get Kamau out of the way to make the Mammoth hit the chickens. I think some version of this is pretty likely to work though.
We seem to be on a path to stay post turn 50, and the way I’ve got inventory laid out we could pretty easily trade some slots out for Mammoth loot, but we also don’t have any idea what space it takes up.
I’ve got a preliminary mapping of loot carry out based on a framework to loot basically everything but the rat chest and a few one off items/enemy items. That framework had us leaving the farm on turn 54 from the stalk screen. Assuming we moved at full tilt we could get back to Manny by turn turn 56 or 57, which would make this more or less possible. The big problem is that we can’t do most of our inventory maintenance until Kamau gives Ricki his armor, and without that armor I can’t see Kamau surviving a fight with Manny. Presumably he’ll be at -5 defense at that point, and Manny does 7 dmg. At 7 hp he’d need 1 armor to survive two attacks (1 attack then dauntless). We could adjust this somewhat with the healing potion but it’s also valueable.
Without plate armor, the best defense Kamau could get and not compromise available slots would be using a hide armor, a helmet, and a regular shield.
For 3+2+1+2-5=3 armor.
If we go with this idea, we would use 2 arrows. Then we can just drop the last one since it only cost 2 gold to buy.
As for your uncertainties: the lens say “rampage”, it would be a pretty lame rampage to stay in an empty screen doing nothing.
For it attacking chickens, combining the fact that everything is a target to it and that it attack the most targets at once confirms it for me. As for a more meta reasoning, it would be weird design to have those chickens there having no purpose since they guard nothing.
As for inventory, I’m no inventory management wizard, but couldn’t we just have Kamau drop some stuff in the barn to wear plate for the fight then drop plate to pickup stuff while Ricky put the dropped plate in Molly?
The loot framework I mentioned.
(the important part is the items included, who has them is arbitrary outside of what’s on Molly). If we assume Mammoth hide is two slots, we’re basically out of enc room and couldn’t hold the mammoth tusks without dropping/using other things.
Molly:
Plate Armor
Hide Armor
Hide Armor
Magma Shield
Heavy Shield
Ricki:
Eggs (3)
Tomatoes (5)
Onions (5)
Carrots (5)
Carrots (5)
Potatoes (3)
Corn (2)
Greataxe
Greataxe
Lohk:
Cane
Wand of Fireballs
Staff of Gravity
Shield
Robe of Fire Dragon
Macadamia:
Swiftblade
Crow Whistle
Pet Egg
Potion of Greater Healing
Purse
Kamau:
Hilt
Helmet
Corn Spear
Shield
Hunters Bow
Arrow (3)
Monk Robe
Pipes
Rope
Tomatoes (5)
2 available enc
Items not mentioned above
Locked Corn Person Chest contents
Two thieves tools in barn with tomatoes (10gp)
1 thief tool in old locked rooms (5gp)
1 egg in coop room (1gp)
1 onion in coop room (1gp)
1 tomato by potatobeast chest (1gp)
Assumptions:
We can get the onions in basement, we get all 4 Carrots in basement, plus the 1 by treehouse and 5 on ground
Future turn framework that I’m imagining not including mammoth plan. Definitely some optimization and clarification to be done. If the turn 50 debuff isn’t anything terrible the mammoth plan might be possible.
T48: Lohk back down, pickup 2 tomatoes . Ricki return to basement, drop carrot and onion with other items to take out magma shield and bat hide, then Kamau, Mac, Ricki grab onions after. Kamau grabs two.
T49: Ricki drop items to insure she’s ready to pickup two thieves tools and the 7 tomatoes (3 slots needed). Lohk go up and right. Ricki go up and right then feed pumpkin tomato. Ricki end turn right of Pumpkin. Kamau go left, climb rope, untie it and jump down.
T50: Ricki go right right and pick up the thieves tools and tomatoes. Kamau go right down. Lohk and Mac do something?
T51: Ricki go left left. Lohk feeds tomato to pumpkin then goes left. Kamau do whatever inventory maintenance.
T52: Kamau interpose corn knight. Ricki go left and down, then lockpick chest. Lohk go pickup carrots from treehouse screen. Mac so something. Ricki and Kamau end turn safely away from corn knight.
T53: Ricki, Mac, Kamau trade inventory. Lohk returns to group.
T54: Pick up all remaining floor items after trades of last turn opened spots. Go upstairs and leave the farm?
I like the overall ideas here. Would it be faster to have Mac being the one to go into the barn to bring the lockpicks to Ricky instead since he got more Mov?
Maybe! Unfortunately I’m abroad and only have time at the beginning and ends of days to really interact here so I can’t crunch those numbers. I suspect that we would have to drop more important things for Mac to carry those items but if we could pick them up again it might be okay. There’s also the issue that it would take time to get the lovkpicks off of Mac and onto Ricki.
Can Lokh freeze rope knot from a distance so it is possible to pull the other side of the rope and the knot breaks and rope falls down?
Mammoth is just a scared animal. Even if this plan was foolproof, I think it’s time to go. Let him live another day. He deserves that much.
The simple plan: loot and leave
Kamau: pick up the eggs
Ricki: pick up all the carrots.
Everyone move togher and exit dungeon
I’m a bit tired of Min maxing for the sake of a few gold. I want more story now please
I’m a fan of the story too, but think of it this way:
The more gold we get, the more story we can get since I assume buying the character-specific rooms is what unlock the bond dungeons.
Yeah, I must agree.
Players: Minmax to get gold to survive future dungeons. Some players feel this is not needed to advance story.
GM: Locks story progression behind gold purchases.
Players: All players minmax even harder to get gold, in near unison
GM: *surprised pikachu face*
There are a total of 10 carrots, which one stack containing 5. Ricki cannot pick up all carrots. Also your plan leaves behind the corn spear, which we really wanted to use against the undeads of that other dungeon. I am for leaving before turn 50, but against throwing away stuff and running.
I know this was going to get downvoted. I just wanted to post my feelings on staying so long
I will confess I’d feel safer leaving at the top of t50, at most
the pipes are a tool, and thus not technically a weapon.
would they work with monk robes?
I’m pretty sure that they would. We know that item “types” are pretty important and taken literally. However, we don’t have anyone with ‘musical’ abilities, so it’s 20%.
Solid guess as to what character we have seen might get musical abilities, though.
Someone whose dungeon theme was ‘make people weaker/less fighty’?
That’s my bet.
Small correction to current plan:
Lohk: go down, drop shield at the base of the stalk, pickup 2 tomatoes.
Mac: move one screen down, pick an onion at the same time as the others.
Kamau: pick two onions with your gardening gloves at the same time as the others, then move upstairs.
Ricki:return to underground, drop carrot and onion in pile near base of stalk, exchange armor and shield in Molly’s packs for two stacks of produce, equip hide armor and magma shield, pick one onion at the same time as the others
Lol I noticed this problem like 2 minutes ago too. Thanks for fixing and to Tem for pointing out the issue.