Dungeon 4 Turn 5
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Ricki emerges from the rat tunnel and loans her shield to Kamau, then she and Lara swim through the now-flooded lower passage. The water impedes their movements and would be difficult to fight in, but doesn’t do any harm as long as they can surface for air (which they do in the next room). Lara’s torch is extinguished during the swim.
Kamau attempts to open the chest guarded by the plague rats, but is unable to open the lid with one of the rats sitting on top of it. He instead smacks the rat in the face with his shield, doing modest damage. The rats hit back, but can’t get through Kamau’s beefy defenses.
In the other room, Lara opens the puzzle chest and finds a rat fang dagger, a strange magical weapon that becomes much more powerful in the hands of a prolific rat slayer. She picks it up and then takes a smoke break, taking 1 unblockable damage and expending the last of the meagre pack of cigarettes she’d snuck into the dungeon.
“Are you sure this is a good time to do that?”
“I just swam through sixty feet of sewer water, let me have this.”
Back in the other room, Kamau decides not to take responsibility for Lara’s bad judgement and gains no Remorse for the use of cigarettes.
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DAGGER, RAT FANG
Weapon
Atk +1, or Atk +2 against rats of all kinds. When attacking, the wielder can expend a Rat Tail from their inventory to gain +3 Atk for that turn.
Weight 1, Cost 10
Kamau: Leave the chest, go left, then wait
Lara: Go right and Sting a rat through the gate
Ricki: Go through the hole
I wonder if beavers gain bonus atk vs anybody/thing that’s made out of Wood.
In hindsight, we should have foreseen that the torch would go out underwater. We’re not gonna be able to rely on Kamau for damage anymore (not that we used him to attack a single time so far). I think it’s like a 50% chance to hit? Can’t remember.
Kamau won’t be able to open the plague rats chest without Ricki and Lara, so there’s no point in sticking around. It seems like there’s a % chance for enemies to swipe at you as you disengage, so I don’t want Kamau to take plague rat damage and then interpose against the beavers. Therefore, Ricki and Lara need to find something else to do for a turn.
I thought there was no penalty for disengaging. Where did we learn about that?
We got backup actions this round since our requested actions were impossible, and Kamau attacking meant he couldn’t leave the room. As such, he’s still in melee with the plague rats, and his movement next turn will pass through plague-rat-guarded space.
I wonder if a beaver counts as a “kind of a rat”. It’s quite similar to a dire rat.
both are rodents, but if it meant rodents it would have specified
Turn 3 called them “weird rats”.
Won’t using a sting on the rats make all 4 rush her and she’ll take 3 damage, causing Kamau to abandon?
King Marth at https://dungeoneyes.com/dungeon-4-turn-4/#comment-3153
Observations re going left: the lever down there is now more accessible via water (one person jumps into water, dives, switches lever, swims up). This will most probably switch the grate, unblock upper lever, and block the second level. Later when the water rises again, we can switch the lever one more time and exit the same way we arrived.
Beavers may be guarding the lever and may attack back, but somehow I think they don’t. Also Lara can begin shooting them from above a bit earlier to soften them up.
However, we have one problem: we can’t safely enter the room to the left by water, since we don’t know what’s there, and the person swiming there underwater may not be able to surface to the air. So no swimming left after switching the lever. Another person must go through no-open grate and take a peek left, and only then the person in water may swim left.
Another observation: locked chest with rat tail is not floating. Also, tail have not moved at all. Eithers rats inside have an air bubble, or are/were dead, or it doesn’t matter.
Problem: Person in the water cannot exit to the top until the water has risen another level, because there is the steep wall. I would not risk this.
given how common rats seem to be, this seem like good loot.
It’s a VERY good loot imho. It works on rats, and it fueled by tails, coming from rats, which are relatively easy to get, and the rat tails stack up to 5 (meaning stashed total 15 dmg), and also — it’s not automatic like flowers. The text says “may expend”, so that’s even at will. Rats, beware!
But.. as the game progresses, we’re now in 4th dungeon, rats are still there, we have seen several species, and even a rat-king, colorful rats, and now beavers (I hope they count as rats/rodents), and this dungeon now it’s like, all about rats. I have a feeling that we’ll see far less rats from now on. Also the weapon cost of 10 suggests it’s not an epic game changer. Still, I really like it 🙂
This is our first example of a dagger that deals more damage, making Dagger Proficiency more interesting.
One downside, it isn’t item type Treasure so I don’t think it counts towards victory.
And: The rat fang dagger was in the puzzle chest opened by slaying the demon rat – how fitting!
Lara still moved through water and used action to loot, looks like water is only bad if you end your turn in it.
I’m pretty sure it’s stated in the text near the end of current turn.
I was wrong, CombatDoctor was right, etc. New plan.
Kamau: Interpose.
Lara: Go right and snipe a rat through the grate.
Ricki: Return through the tunnel to the plague rats and kill the one on top of the chest.
New plan looks like this:
Turn 6:
Kamau interpose, Ricki return and slay plague rat, Lara snipe a rat.
Turn 7: Ricki take shield from Kamau, Ricki double move to scout through rat hole by red chest, Kamau loot chest and return left. Lara snipe a rat.
Depending on scout results, we may now wish to go for the beaver chest and the left room. If we don’t:
Turn 8: Ricki unscout through rat hole, Kamau interpose on top of room 2, Ricki move right past interposed rat group and right again past the rat pile in room 1. (Kamau takes 1 damage) Lara snipe a rat.
Turn 9: Ricki down to lever room and hit the lever. Kamau loot a chest. Lara ???. Kamau takes 2 damage.
Turn 10: Kamau loot another chest and run. Kamau takes 2 damage. Ricki hits lever again and exits up. Lara ???
If we do that, in turn 9 and 10 Lara could snipe (standing on the ladder, line of sight) the two small rats at the top level. Would save damage when passing them and might get dropped rat tails. – Ricki, between turn 9&10 additionally: Shout: “Water is coming!”
Are we 100% sure the rats can’t get through the grate? Lara will take 3 damage and Kamau will take 3 remorse and abandon if we’re wrong
100%? I can’t actually say that. We have memories of LSN talking about angering the snale and letting it kill rats back in the dungeon 2 stream, but that’s not available anymore and that bit isn’t in the notes anybody took down. I think it’s right, but it’s beyond my ability to prove. If you want to have her start sniping at beavers instead, that’s fine, but it does mean we’re gonna have real trouble with the three chest room.
Maybe have Ricki give Lara her leather just to be extra safe
Because we need to keep Lara sniping rats in room 1, that’d mean never getting that armor back on Ricki Could yank Kamau’s maybe, and have Lara shuffle hers back to Kamau before the grate opens. I guess it works, it’s just complicated.
It would just be a shame if Kamau gets remorse again.
Hm.. actually, we need that extra armour, or Kamau’s interpose help, only on the first shot. Then we’ll see if the rats jumped out at her or not, and if not, we can re-optimize equipment.
Kamau can’t see in the dark, so it’s better that he goes back to the chest guarded by the beavers and interpose.
Lara and Ricki attack the beaver sitting on top of the chest. Loot the beaver chest if able.
After this they can go for the 3 chests. Ricki can go for the unexplored third area after securing enough treasures to finish the dungeon sucessfully.
At round 10 the water will rise again, there is no time for beaver chest as well as for 3 chests – only either/or.
I was afraid that the water would get the torch, but it had been fine in inventory before. Oh well.
Ricki: Explore through the rat hole.
Lara: Swim back to Kamau, take shield, armour, and two thieves tools, attack injured plague rat with Rat Fang dagger.
Kamau: Loot the plague rat chest, or take the longsword and use it to attack anything in the way.
Lara and Kamau: End turn away from surviving plague rats.
I think we should give up on the three chest room. I don’t like sending Ricki ahead without the shield, but the longer we don’t see that room, the less chance we have to do anything with it. Revealing the room will also tell us whether we can use the water entrance.
Let’s see if we can distract the beavers with an empty treasure chest as “food”.
I agree with giving up on 3 chest room. Get too greedy and we’ll get nothing. If we work together on plague chest and beaver chest we’ll get some good loot and get out alive.
I think you’re right that it’s time to give up on the three chest room. Even if all our assumptions go well, the best result I see is Kamau pulling out with two chests of loot from it and 2 HP left. I don’t envy our odds of shoving the other chest out past the rat pile, and we’re not likely to kill it unless we snag a rat tail. Which would take an action we don’t have, as grabbing guarded items is an action.
I’m less sure about this exact plan. The thing is, we kinda want rat tails now. I would seriously consider having Kamau swing at the other plague rat instead of looting this turn.. 50% chance of success sucks, but if it works we maybe get another drop, and don’t have to spend an action to snag drops from the floor.
I like your idea of dropping the chest onto beavers. Can we fit that somewhere? We’ve got Ricky and Lara there, with four hands, it shouldn’t take much time to do that, and whatever effect we get, it may be fun, even if it’s just the chest floating on the water. And if it sinks, it may even damage them a bit. Or “food” as you said, but actually, beavers don’t eat wood, so I don’t think it would work this way 🙂
Replace “food” with “building material”.
On the other hand, we should make sure that we are right of the position of the grate – if the chest hits the lever, forces it down (lowering the grate), then breaks the lever, and we are left of the grate, the only way out would be through the water and the third room – but we do not know whether that way even exists, might be a dead end!
Problem: We did not explicitly stow the torch into the inventory but had it plainly in the open. No wonder it got extinguished. Unfortunately we did not get to test the theory that it would have stayed OK in the inventory, but as Lara’s cigarettes (and matches?!) stayed dry, I think it would have worked.
Ricki: Grit and explore through the rat hole.
Lara: Swim back to Kamau, take shield, armour, and two thieves tools, attack injured plague rat with Rat Fang dagger.
Kamau: Take the longsword and swing at the other plague rat.
Lara and Kamau: End turn away from surviving plague rats.
As KingMarth, but:
Ricki uses grit. It’s not an ideal use, but we’re probably not actively planning to make Kamau remorse, and HP on her now is safer for “oh no that hurt than I thought” scenarios. And the action is free this turn, while Ricki’s probably going to be pretty busy from now on.
Kamau takes a swing instead of looting the chest. This seems more likely to make the other plague rat attack him instead of Lara, as we prefer for remorse reasons. It’s also a 50% chance of killing it. Ideally, these rats drop tails. Dire rats have a 70% drop chance and I don’t see a reason these would be lower. It takes an action, but if it works all enemies will be dead, so snagging the rat tails won’t cost an action, compensating us.
Yeah, I like this. We technically don’t have any hard data on plague rat toughness, but LSN hinted that the sun sphere would’ve cleared them, so a 5-attack swing should work. Modest damage from 3 attack implies 1 defense, I’m guessing they have 4 HP rather than the 3 HP of a dire rat.
We get confirmed drop rates for all enemies at the end of the dungeon where they appear. Enemy page confirms 70% chance of tail from plague rats. Tails are a bonus though, and we can pick some up from the rats up top in our last 5 turns.
Never mind my deleted comment here, dungeon solve condition contains: “gather at exit”.
Alternate version (according to my other post – see down below):
Ricki: double move back into the area with the rat tail chest, stay in the air bubble.
Lara: Swim back to Kamau, take shield, armour, and two thieves tools, attack injured plague rat with Rat Fang dagger.
Kamau: Take the longsword and swing at the other plague rat.
Lara and Kamau: End turn away from surviving plague rats.
In this version, we have Ricki grab whatever is in the rat tail chest (other than rats), while Kamau and Lara clean out the plague rat chest (and hopefully thereafter the beaver rat chest).
The downside is that we don’t really learn about the third room until later and/or that we probably don’t have a chance to hit the three chest room (with likelihood of success in there). But I would prefer the bird in the hand to the two in the bush.
It is dark now that the torch went off. So, 50% miss chance. Also the water impedes movement, so its probably a full turn just to swim from Laras current position to Kamau.
Movement-impeding only was said to hinder the combat (probably atk/def penalty for us, maybe bonus for beavers since they are accustomed to this). I think movement in water goes by normal rules.
Slight change: Kamau: Take the longsword and
a) if the plague rat on the chest is still living: swing at it.
b) if the plague rat on the chest is dead: swing at the other rat instead.
Just to make it really sure that we can loot the chest in the following turn.
Cigarettes wasted. Oh well, that’s what we get for roleplay. Partly on me for not swapping cigarettes out on the turn my suggestion got in; I kind of didn’t mind if it happened on a turn she was attacking a target with unknown HP.
On that note, I did kind of want the boots on Lara so any floor traps we missed could avoid Remorse, but there haven’t been floor traps thus far this time.
Does anyone want to risk it to have Ricki go back into the former red rat lair?
I know there is water in there now, and the rat tail sticking out of the “lock” indicates that there will be regular rats in the chest, but I’m kind of guessing that there will be something else in there, too, most likely a treasure. (it -was- a guarded chest, and especially a chest guarded by – a really dangerous – rat, after all, and this dungeon’s theme is “rats stashing away their shinies”, so that kind of makes me think – along with those 3 dead people who risked and lost their lives trying to get it – that there must be something valuable in there.)
We would have to be careful not to take too long, but it is one chest that we’d be relatively easily be able to loot (at least until turn 9, because in turn 10 and following, the air bubble in the area with the rat tunnel will be gone).
something like this:
turn 6 Ricki goes back into the red rat room (double more), stays in the air bubble.
turn 7 Ricki swims/dives down to open the chest, avoid the rats, if possible*, loot the chest, if possible, swim back up and end turn in air bubble
turn 8, depending on whether Ricki was able to loot the chest in turn 7 either have her loot the chest now and move back into the area of the two plague rats (which Lara and Kamau will likely have decimated by now), stay in the air bubble OR (if looting in turn 7 was successful) double move to the now opened red rat chest.
(* trap damage oftentimes is unblockable, but then again that usually is valid when/if we don’t know there is a trap. In dungeon 2 turn 23, we had Kamau examine a bucket that had a rat tail sticking out of it, just like it looks with the chest lock, and that one did contain 3 rats that attack him “normally” and thus Kamau didn’t take any damage. 3 Rats wouldn’t be able to get through Ricki’s defense either, as long as she has the leather armour on.)
I’m hoping that between the beaver rat chest, the plague rat chest and the chest the red rat was sitting on (so NOT the “?” chest), there will be 3 treasures loot in them and then we don’t need the room with the 3 chests. I admit, that one is tempting – if nothing else because it has a locked chest and locked chest have a tendency to hold the best stuff – but it also is a lot of fuss and a lot of risk, especially since the lever to open the path to the exit again is behind 2 dire rats and a regular rat and will be flooded from turn 10 onwards. I really don’t want to have Ricki go down there and flip the switch, once it is flooded because who knows what will happen to her. If interacting with a guarded item (and the lever is guarded) uses up one action, she will not be able to go into the water and out of the water in the same turn. That could lead to 1 point of suffocation damage, thus one remorse for Kamau (in addition to any damage she would take if she doesn’t have the shield on her at that time).
And I know that for the course of action of wanting to loot the chest with the rat tails sticking out, it wasn’t ideal to have Ricki double move AWAY from it (causing us to basically loose 2 turns for Ricki), but we didn’t know how the water would work, and I wanted her to be safe at least, so we’d still be able to abanadon the dungeon, rather than have everyone trapped and die here.
Also, I really want to scout ahead into the thrid (and probably final room), but I don’t know when we’re supposed to do that. If we do that now (Ricki is at least standing next to the hole that will allow her to do that), the whole thing with getting whatever is in the rat tail chest is becoming more risky, because in turn 10, Ricki shouldn’t be on level 3 (counted from the top) anymore, and my projection already goes until turn 8 without Ricki leaving for the third room and coming back…
EDIT:
I did want to mention something else, and forgot.
I think that at very least the beaver rats (the ones swimming near the lever and the ones guarding the chest) will simply rise with the water and thus continue to give us trouble. I’m guessing that where Ricki and Lara are standing now, the two beaver rats from the “lever pool” will be sitting from turn 10 onwards, and attack any passer-bys.
The other rats might do that (going up with the water level and attack us wherever the end up sitting then), too, or just “go away”, once the water rises to their level (rats are fairly good swimmers, as far as I know, but they don’t really dwell in water like beavers do).
To be honest, I’m curious about that chest, since it was probably one of the harder-to-get one (except for anything we have not yet seen in the room to the left). However, (1) if we send Ricky there, then GRIT/etc before opening the chest, and also (2) that place was connected to the RedChest, is it really plausible to have more loot bound to this place?
I think three-chests from the starting room have something.
I think there’s something in the room to the left.
I don’t think there are more rooms, since it’d be really HARD to go through all of them within the time limit. But if there’s a fourth room as well, then there’d be something there for sure.
This leaves very little space to have something important in the rat-tail chest, so I’d skip it.
By the way, funny idea – maybe the rat tail that’s visible on the chest simply indicates what is in the chest? maybe that’s a chest full of rat tails. It’s a rats hunter chest, filled with trophies, guarded by an angry rat that have sworn revenge on the hunter for killing its whole family!
Thank you for clean, blue rain water instead of dirty, brown sanitary waste.
It would have been cool! I was looking forward to another sewer witch.
Lara relight her torch.
We know she can do it because she just lit a cigarette. HA CHECKMATE LSN!!!
The cigarettes were in her inventory – dry. The torch was in the open – wet. Relighting a wet torch (which obviously was left floating in the water in the first room, see image) will not work. BUT: Lara can set things on fire which can be set on fire, like the papers Ricki burned in the jail. Good to remember that for the future!
So, if the team has got three rat tails (rat tail is a Treasure) it seems enough to finish this dungeon successfully.
And if that is right then rat tails is a real treasure as they allow to receive level UP for all.
Omg. That’s amazing. That said, I would totally understand if LSN didnt count those. I don’t want to be in a GM/player relationship where both sides are trying to twist the rules in their favor.
Well, who knows…
It is possible that LSN checks if we are able to find this option to win.
Also, I think that rat tails can be shown to Lohk later…
Just to hear another Bah! ))