Dungeon 4 Turn 15
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While Kamau gets in the rats’ way to prevent them from attacking anyone else, Ricki and Lara work together to take out the largest and most threatening of them (since Lara’s new accessories don’t seem interested in helping out this time). The plague rat is slain, and nobody takes any damage.
The water level has increases, leaving only a single level of air left in the dungeon.
Kamau: Interpose.Lara, Ricki: Kill a rat each.No, that makes no sense. Someone figure out what to make Kamau do.
Ricki: Scout out the room to the right
Kamau and Lara: Finish off the small rats
If we’re scouting, Maybe have Kamau scout, since he’s the one that can miss rats?
We could have Kamau scout left actually. Would be very safe because there can’t be any enemies there and would give us an idea of what flooded rats do.
right also have rats and rat piles. We can see there.
and i worry about Pawn and Ricki Grandma. Something is off about entrance.
Lara and Ricki each kill a tiny rat. Kamau interposes just in case anyone shows up.
Paws vanishing might be humorous, or it might be an ominous sign that something is up in the next room. If something strikes Kamau, we have no way of surviving it twice, so we must be ready to attack when we enter. Hence keeping the team together is the best idea.
And if any rat tails drop, pick them up and place them in Kamau’s inventory to the two rat tails, which are already there.
Why kill a rat? There’s no XP in this game. Just leave them. Who cares?
Kamau: Go right and interpose Rat Pile
Lara: Go Right and attack Rat Pile
Ricki: Go Right and attack Rat that will fall from Rat Pile
no need to allow that rat attack next turn.
IF: Dire rats from bellow moved and joind Rat Pile. Both Lara and Ricki attack different Dire Rat. Kamau still Interposes.
I assume we are leaving? We can spend next few turns grinding rat tails for future, Not like there is anything else to do.
Could be, but since we don’t know if the two dire rats and the single small rat in the “lever cell” came up through the hole near the exit, there is a potential +10 attack force waiting in the next room: the pile (+5), the two dire rats (+4) and the small rat (+1).
Kamau can’t take any more remorse, and interposing will kill him and trigger Dauntless. I don’t think Kamau can survive a second turn there in these conditions, even if Lara uses the wand to heal him.
IF all those rats are there, we need Kamau to interpose while Lara and Ricki kill the dire rats. Dauntless will trigger, and Kamau will be safe with only a +6 attack against his defense. At this point, I suggest we leave.
Alternatively, if all those rats are there we could just complete the dungeon. There’s no benefit to only killing some of the rats then leaving because any loot they drop only appears when the entire group dies, and cannot be picked up for free until then anyway.
That being the case, Ricki trade items in her inventory, get all 3 treasures, then everyone move to the exit. Kamau interposes, Ricki run the f out of the dungeon. Lara follow Ricki.
Give Kamau a cinematic and daunting escape scene.
Don’t need to worry about putting treasure on Ricki specifically, our victory condition is to have all remaining characters gather at the exit and leave while carrying three or more treasures. Ricki carrying the treasures is only relevant if we abandon.
If water would cause rats to move we would see small rats from room1 (behind bars with 3 chests) as the only place they can run to is the room we are in. They should be smoll enough to fit.
Uncertain, I vaguely recall from the dungeon 2 wrap up stream that the rats by the lever near the turret snale would’ve been trapped by the locked grate.
That said, it feels likely that the rat pile from the room 3 lever would retreat through the tunnel to this room, if that was an option. I agree that we’re probably safe.
Even though the winning comment did have
in it, I don’t see it mentioned in the update text, nor depicted.
Which could mean that it wasn’t done, and if so, we should NOT have Kamau engage this turn. The potential 10 incoming attack (as Tann pointed out: the pile (+5), the two dire rats (+4) and the small rat (+1) if the dire rats and regular rat migrated through the tunnel) PLUS 2 of the two regular rats in this room (getting a parting shot if the “disengage” wasn’t performed) would most likely be enough to kill Kamau regardless of his dautless skill (that only triggers if he is reduced to 0 health, we don’t know what happens if you receive more damage than you have Def+HP left, do you go into negative? Do you stop at 0 because you can’t get any “deader”?)
I’ve reasoned that you can’t lose more HP than you have, and the “at end of turn” note on Dauntless means that Kamau can live through any damage on the turn it triggers, otherwise it wouldn’t be any different from having 16 HP.
Note that usually all healing applies at the same time as damage for a turn. Someone at 1 HP who loses 2 HP after Defense and drinks a healing potion that turn for 2 HP would end that turn at 1 HP, since healing combines with damage and it’s not the case that they lose the HP “before” they heal.
Unfortunately it’s really hard and dangerous to experiment with these abilities.
Lsn did confirm on discord that dauntless works as we imagine. No matter how much damage Kamau takes in one turn, if dauntless is available his hp will be set to 1 at the end of the turn.
Good to know, thank you for relaying that information.
Aww.. 70% chance and no rat tail? 🙁
Need to kill group for drop
ooh.. right, thanks
Kamau: move right to entrance. Do not engage.
Lara and Ricki: each kill a rat and scoop up and tails that drop
In addition to the above: Have Ricki give her shield to Lara, grab the booze in return (else we’ll have inventory issues).
That way Lara should be safe, even if both rats gang up on her (currently she only has 1 Def).
Lara should remove the helmet (so it will be safe) and receive some additional defense!
Otherwise we have unjustified risk to lose Treasure or to get hit by two rats.
Uhm, she’s already not wearing the helmet anymore.
According to CHARACTERS page (there is additional gold shield sign for Lara) and because there is no mentions that she removed it she DO wear it at the moment.
She also has three red sword icons for the rusty greatsword, which she clearly isn’t using here. I think the stats page tells us the highest available stats for given equipment.
I remember the situation when Kamau had the shield in his inventory but was not wielding it but some weapon instead. The shield did not show up for his defense value at that time. Thus, either the characters page was wrong then (showing actual value instead of maximum value), or it is wrong now (showing maximum value instead of actual value). [Or it is random by design.] Could @LSN please clarify?
But, yes, there is no helmet at the picture.
So, looks like CHARACTERS page is not updated (according the helmet).
The instruction ‘do not engage” does not prevent monsters from engaging us, and we are unaware of the situation in the right-side for a great long while. I do not recommend Kamau going in alone.
concern is that rats amassed by entrance.
and we know it’s safe to peak into a room and the leave.
so would amending it to “Kamau go right and if there are more rats than just the Pile go back?”
If scouting is deemed imperative, seems easier to double move, going near the grate one floor below to the right and then returning to middle room for air
… but if the 4 regular rats are just leaving through the grate, or the rat pile split up and is leaving, or the rat pile from left arrives through the rat hole, or the beaver from the level below swims up, and just one enemy meets Kamau in the water, he would be locked in combat, and get more drowning damage – just to get to know that there is danger ahead?
Kamau’s face looks like: so this is my life now…
Ricki: Sever a Rat’s Tail if you can do attacks that aren’t just dealing damage. Get lucky with the 30% chance instead if all you can do with attacks is kill.
Lara: Same as Ricki.
Kamau: Do whatever the most popular idea but keep looking annoyed. (I love the look on his face! XD)
I’m mostly joking, but why not try out aimed attacks? It’s worth a try and I think we can afford to lose a turn if it doesn’t work.
More serious idea: Have Ricki give her Thieves’ Tools to Kamau.
I don’t know if Always Prepared gives a free Thieves’ Tools as long as there’s an inventory space available or if it’s only if she doesn’t already have a Thieves’ Tools.
It’s as long as she has an inventory space. This happened at start of chapel.
Are we able to do inventory management outside of dungeons? Cause right now she won’t have space unless we move things.
We usually can, when/if we come across some kind of shop. Has been that way between the tavern dungeon and the chapel and between the chapel dungeon and the sewers.
However, with the empty panel showing that Paws ISN’T there (where Ricki supposes him to be), we might not get a shot at shopping with him this intermission. Whether we’ll get an alternate shopkeep/fence or we don’t get to sell/buy anything is anyone’s guess.
Ricki: Trade thieves tools for Kamau’s rat tails and swap shield for Lara’s brandy, kill a rat with Rat Fang. Collect unattended rat tails.
Lara: Give both sets of thieves tools to Kamau. Kill a rat with the longsword, use shield for safety. Keep helmet unequipped and safe. Pick up any leftover rat tails Ricki can’t carry.
Kamau: Head right to give Ricki a view of the entrance. Do not engage.
Just in case, splitting defensive items so rats can’t double-team Lara. They’ve split targets before, of course.
Almost there…
Maybe, it will be better to enter room 1 simultaneously?
If there are rat pile, 2 dire rats and a rat and they attack Kamau on sight (this turn) – that will be a disaster.
Or rats can’t do this?
Rats have never actively approached a character, even those climbing a ladder next to them. I won’t say it’s impossible (especially if they have a commander like the King Rat giving instructions, just like how the ghoul commanded skeletons), but I consider knowing the contents of that room to be more important than planning around a rat ambush.
That said, you are correct that our actions for next turn are unlikely to change based on this information; Kamau will Interpose and the girls will kill available targets and group up at the exit in case there’s too many enemies (either from the lever guards coming up top or the rat pile exploding).
Voted for your “ultra-safe” plan.
Turn 8, Ricki attacked a solo rat: “Ricki emerges on the other side of the tunnel and quickly throws her longsword at the small rat, but although the attack cuts it in half immediately, she gets hit in the face by its severed head. The rat pile
then surges forward and attacks, dealing 1 damage.” Either pile+solo are treated as 1 group, or rat piles are just aggressive and do approach characters. Also note how the pile is actively following (and trying to attack) Ricki for the following turns.
It was an enemy group guarding the treasure chest (and, later, the thrown weapon used in combat with that group). Enemies have approached to melee when attacked at ranged for as long as we have had ranged attacks, see dungeon 2 turn 42. The only reason I expected a ranged attack to make any difference here was because a pile didn’t look like it could effectively move. The later attacks were due to crossing paths with the pile when interacting with guarded targets, though this does suggest that moving an enemy by using a ranged attack doesn’t stop them from guarding.
Disengaging from combat in the same room has been hit or miss, it’s been most effective against bats in the multi-level room.
Alternative, ultra-safe:
Ricki: Trade thieves tools for Kamau’s rat tails and swap shield for Lara’s brandy, kill a rat with Rat Fang. Collect unattended rat tails.
Lara: Give both sets of thieves tools to Kamau. Kill a rat with the longsword, use shield for safety. Keep helmet unequipped and safe.
Kamau: Interpose. Pick up any leftover rat tails Ricki can’t carry.
Knowing what we’re dealing with in the exit won’t really change our approach, unless it’s bad enough to burn our treasures to make it out alive.
In the first room, there are still three poorly guarded chests…
…and we have NO way of getting to them, without losing at least one team member.
In order to even get there in the first place, we’d have to send Ricki to level 3 in the entrance room, which is underwater, in order to open the grate. She’d take one unblockable drowning damage and Kamau leaves the instance because of remorse.
(And with him also leaves the chance to get the girls out safely, because he can’t interpose for them and the rat pile that is there for certain has 5 attack, which Ricki can take with leather armour AND shield, but even if we gave Lara the other armour and other shield – which we can’t if Kamau leaves with the shield – she’d still have 4 Defense tops. Unless you want her to equip the helmet and risk losing that, meaning we FAIL the dungeon goal and nobody gets a skill-up.)
Even if we’d send Lara down there to try and get the chests, that level is underwater now, too, so she’d take drowning damage as well. Not to mention the 4 regular rats and the rat pile (together for a WHOPPING 9 incoming damage – that does definitely not qualify as poorly guarded in my eyes, but whatever – which Lara certainly can’t tank) who might or might not have left due to the tunnel being now flooded.
And in order to get Lara out of the dungeon, Ricki would have to do another trip to the lever, taking yet another damage.
So, as already established MULTIPLE times in the comments, this is a VERY BAD IDEA.
How greedy does one have to be, honestly, to be willing to sacrifice our character’s level-ups and/or lives for treasure (or crap, depending what the chests contain), especially after we already got so much great stuff?
They’d be poorly guarded if water swept all the rats out of the dungeon. The four small rats would almost certainly be gone from suffocation if they’re still there.
Still not really available due to suffocation with the lever.
Additionally, one of the chests is looked. Only Ricki can unlock chests, and only Ricki can go to the lever room. Therefore the chest would need to be moved from its current position to the left of the grate. Lock-picking underwater means still more drowning damage. If movement of the locked chest to the middle room and up the ladder would even be possible, it would cost more turns. Really not feasible without Rings of Water Breathing (which, naturally, were in the chest far left behind the beavers in the lowest level of the third room, probably together with the Holy Grail, the Philosopher’s Stone, the Golden Fleece, …).
We opened 8 chests, could have opened another one, but decided against it because it is trapped, and did not go to the remaining 6 chests. That is an impressive ratio, imho. The dungeons are not designed to be completely cleanable of treasure and enemies.
From previous turn comment:
So science must be almost happy now )))
Plague rat has 4HP+1Def or 3HP+2Def.
Am I correct?
Proposition to LSN:
If the team succeed will it be possible for Lara to level UP before other characters?
So we will know what she can get before we need to make choice about Ricki’s and Kamau’s new abilities.
Upd.: if all characters level up simultaneously as King Marth said it had happened after dungeon 2 (unfortunately, I wasn’t there at the moment)))) that is even better than just one level up page at a time.
Yes, PLEASE. *puppy dog eyes*
Yea, it’s important to know if there is any way for her to loose corruption.
there gotta be! She somehow was an Arachnomancer! No way they just stop functioning after 8 uses of their power. (nice reference to number of spider legs btw.)
Maybe 3 trurns ritual where she needs to sacrifice a sapient humanoid?
I don’t think there will be any way to remove it, that’s why it’s Corruption. The sacrifices are probably how she started getting Corruption. The ability itself clearly states that she loses the ability to use corrupting abilities after the eighth use, but there’s no mention of what the transformation might be. Best to assume that it either kills her or turns her into a monster trying to kill us, then if it ends up being survivable then we get lucky.
However, Venomous Sting I is clearly upgradable (obvious option is 3 damage). She might also learn other non-corrupting magic, or maybe even another corruption option. Weapon and armour proficiency are likely options. I expect a choice between clinging to those Arachnomancer powers or trying to grow beyond them while always having the temptation to fall.
I’m thinking Dash for Ricki and Heavy Armour Proficiency for Kamau.
I was thinking Big Haul for Ricki (so she can keep the rat fang dagger and rat tails in her inventory), and maybe later on (next skill level) dagger proficiency. (I think rats will still be a common sight in “Ricki only” areas, so it kind of makes sense to keep this weapon on her (and the tails so she can boot her attacks)).
Big Haul might also enable her to use the crit gloves/greaves and still have room for defensive items and/or loot.
For Kamau, I thought something with shields would be nice, most likely shield bash (so he can get the +1 attack he would get with his hilt from using the shield, instead. That way he can get BOTH the attack bonus as well as the defense bonus. Because if we have him attack with the hilt, he won’t be getting the Def value from the shield, as far as I understood it).
But heavy armour proficiency is a good choice, too. Provided we will be able to go shopping.
If we can’t shop – e.g. because Paws has been abducted – possibly by whoever offered to pay for Ricki when she was in jail, and who has learned about her connection with Paws by now and therefore uses him as bait -> next dungeon opportunity is to save Paws, maybe? – or arrested (by the guard, because he was stationary too long and got spotted while having our backs), then it will be as “non-useful” as the “trap detection II” was in this dungeon 4 (not a single trap present at all). But – like “trap detection II” – it will come in handy sooner or later.
Putting the crit greaves/gloves on Kamau is only somewhat sensible, because he interposes more often than not and his counter attack triggers almost never.
Putting them on Lara might be even less sensible (depending on what skills she can get when levelling up), because she might use her “sting spell” ranged attack more often than melee weapons.
… then again, neither the greaves nor the gloves mention melee weapons have to be used, it just says
so… does that mean it “stacks” with spells, too?
Sure, but only if the spell uses Attack. To be clear, Venomous Sting (and Barrage for that matter) are ranged attacks, which work independently from attack value. This does mean that Lara’s spell damage wasn’t reduced underwater, but much like with cigarettes, attack buffs don’t increase ranged damage.
The wording of the How to Play page has caused some confusion here. My attempt at rewording:
ATK: Attack. This value, represented by swords, is how much *damage you deal when you attack in melee*. Weapons can increase Atk.
Def: Defense. When attacked by enemies, this value (represented by shields) is subtracted from *the total incoming damage you would take*. Def applies to the sum of all attacks taken in a turn, not to each individual attack. Shields and armour can increase Def.
Correct, the point of Shield Bash is to let Kamau deal more damage while defending himself with a shield. I don’t like it though, if Kamau is using a shield then we probably want him to Interpose, and if he’s attacking then we want to deal lots of damage at once (and also take a little damage in hopes of Counterattack). I’d prefer Shield Proficiency of that set, that gives a defense boost with equipment we definitely have and it lets him spend HP when attacking. Heavy armour has shown up in other dungeons though, and since we know we’ll be buying some at first opportunity anyway (and that Kamau’s level up may be skipped), I’d rather get the defense ability that will be always active.
I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t have seen the rat tail poking out of the red rat chest without Trap Detection II, and we most definitely would have opened that chest otherwise. We’ll only find out in the debriefing stream whether that decision hurt us, but if it would have caused Remorse from being hit by attacks and/or held underwater, then skipping it was good. (Maybe I would’ve been less greedy with killing the pile, but still.)
Big Haul is very useful on Ricki, as I’ve been suggesting from the start. I’m mostly leaning towards Dash now because of how I realized it lets you use the floor in another room as your inventory, since movement 2 lets you leave the room, grab and drop off stuff, then return and take an action including attacking. Lara’s inventory has greatly improved our ability to hold loot.
Okay, so shield proficiency is a great option, we can definitely agree on that and your reasoning about wanting Kamau to defend (when wielding the shield) absolutely makes sense. Also we will certainly be able to use it in the next dungeon (because we already have 2 shields available). When/If we are able to buy a heavy armour in the intermission or at some other point (or find one that doesn’t break), we can still get that “heavy armour proficiency” with the next level up (unless something else is more interesting/pressing).
While the option to use the floor as “inventory extention” worked out in this dungeon, I kind of suspect it might be very different in another dungeon.
This one was compact (only 3 rooms) and going back and forth to fetch stuff was doable. If it’s a dungeon as big as e.g. the chapel (so you might not get where you want to go with 2 moves for quick item swapping) and/or moving between rooms isn’t as safe (because of enemies in the way and moving back and forth for items would get Ricki hurt), then Big Haul would be a much better option. Also Big Haul would also have worked in this compact dungeon, too, so I view it as preferable to dash, when looking at “solving inventory problems”.
Naturally, there will be situations where dash is preferable, too. (E.g. big dungeon, Ricki having to get from one end to the other as quickly as possible, when the path in-between is safe for her to pass.)
I’m still thinking that the “rat tail chest” would have contained 3 rats (which could not have hurt Ricki with her 5 Def at that time), and we might have gotten something good out of it, as well. But you’re right, we won’t know if it was a “waste” (during this dungeon at least), until we learn what exactly that chest contained in the “debriefing”.
And it definitely was good to know that the other chests (the ones we looted) were certainly -not- trapped, else we might have been more squeamish about looting them (or WHO loots them at least) and have lost valuable time.
In a bigger dungeon, Dash is even better. I think every single dungeon has had Ricki double move at least once, so that would’ve been another action on those turns. Big Haul increases what is possible, currently Ricki is physically incapable of using Rat Fang + shield + chain armour + tails.
Stashing items one room away is only really needed when going through rat tunnels, which thus far have only ever gone to sealed rooms. Otherwise, our allies can carry spare gear. We’ve also left excess items on the floor in both the tavern and chapel, that part doesn’t seem very difficult.
Dash encourages people to split the party. This is a temptation we could do without.
I think that Dash is a good choice for Ricki.
In addition to the benefits mentioned by King Marth it will be possible for Ricki to dive and swim to another room (under water), loot a chest and get back with some new staff and WITHOUT loosing 1HP for spending one turn without an air. Some similar situation (gas, electricity hazards, etc.) with Dash come in hand are possible too.
The second option (if not the Dash) I would choice is Sneaky I as it allows to loot one well guarded chest or reach some (final?) point per dungeon.
The third place at the moment is Big haul.
As for Kamau.
Shield Proficiency is good if we keep going with all characters stick together with Kamau interposing.
Heavy Armour Proficiency is even better as far as we get Heavy Armour.
One question thought – why no one is thinking of Cleave?
There are usually a pack of weak monsters dealing collective damage. Kamau with a sword (and maybe gloves/greaves) and fighting can deal additional 2-3 (less probable 4) damage to some second target (killing it or making it easier to finish it later or the same turn by Ricki/Lara).
In dungeon 2, both level up pages were posted at the same time and we voted on all of them simultaneously.
Well, that is the best option!
I’m just commenting so we can add further comments to freak out LSN. Two more till “Nice”.
Remember to vote: http://www.topwebcomics.com/vote/26944
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I have a little question about DAGGER, RAT FANG
In its description:
There is nothing said that when attacking with rat fang…
So if you hold rat fang in one hand and attack with, let’s say longsword, is it possible to get +3Atk?
Nice try, but no cigar 🙂
Look at the items page https://dungeoneyes.com/items/ at any weapon.
For example, Dagger, Weapon, Atk+1
For example, Greatsword Rusty, Weapon, Atk+3
There’s nowhere written “when attacking” on a weapon-class item. The first stat is always “Atk+X” and it’s implied it refers to using it in the attack.