Dungeon 4 Turn 11
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Ricki grabs the longsword and goes back through the tunnel. The rat pile continues to attack her, but can’t get through her Def without help.
Kamau swims back to the ladder while Lara continues to snipe the beaver, dealing minor damage. It swims over and attacks her, dealing no damage but seeming very interested in her shield. Kamau takes another swing but misses in the darkness.
Ricki takes a look at this other room now that it’s half full of water.
Ricki: grab lockpicks, go back in side room, unlock for treasure
Kamau and Lara: go open chests
Ricki: Drop longsword, rat fang, and rat tails, pick up lockpicks, then go back through the tunnel and unlock the chest
Lara: Use the longsword to attack the beaver, then get air.
Kamau: If beaver is still alive, finish it. Otherwise, if you can do it without drowning, swim over, open a chest, and return for air
Ricki, on the slim chance there are two items in the chest and Ricki keeps her lockpicks, will now be able to carry everything out the next turn.
Lara should be able to finish off the beaver with 4-1 atk.
Kamau’s instructions are specifically written to avoid taking any suffocation damage.
I think the beaver’s attachment to the wooden shield is just targetting, not attempting to destroy equipment.
I think the way the beaver’s interest in the wooden shield is discribed is pretty telling. I’d rather not risk the shield being cracked or destroyed. We have nothing better to do now. Let Kamau interpose and Lara kills the beaver with a sword attack, then they surface for air.
Kamau MUST give IMPERIAL RESERVE BRANDY to Lara because of this:
This dungeon can be abandoned. If Ricki leaves while carrying the necessary treasures, only other characters not present at the exit will be considered to have abandoned.
If Kamau receives one last point of remorse then the Treasure will be “locked” inside his inventory.
Ricki: Drop longsword, rat fang dagger, and rat tails on the left of the top floor. Pick up the thieves tools. Go back through the rat hole. Open the chest with the tools.
Kamau: Interpose.
Lara: Kill beaver with longsword.
Kamau and Lara: Stay in air supply.
Ditching the stuff we don’t need immediately on the top floor, where it won’t flood.
Beaver will die in one hit with the longsword, now that it’s taken a little damage, so we don’t need additional effort. (-1 Atk penalty for fighting in water, but it took at least one damage. And they’ve died to a longsword hit from Lara before.)
Kamau interposes just for the freaky off chance the beaver can do something to the shield. I think it’s just acting as a lure, but we don’t need to test that theory.
Lara should give Kamau her Leather Armor so he doesn’t take damage and because she won’t need it on a turn she won’t be attacked.Edit: I forgot the less Beavers means less damage detail and that Kamau’s fine.
Kamau won’t take damage anyway. We know how much damage they do from last turn, and it’s 2 per beaver.
I think we should have Lara stow the shield anyway (don’t wield it). Otherwise this is exactly what I’d have done.
EDIT: Nothing to read here. I forgot the rats on the middle room cannot damage Ricki. She can safely drop stuff behind them.
Not quite, it is very important that Ricki leaves items on the left top floor so that she doesn’t cross paths with the rats in the middle room, as otherwise she would take damage when going back into the rat pile room to loot the chest.
Updating predictions…
Turn 13: Ricki leaves with treasure, dash to room 3. Kamau and Lara loot two of the underwater chests.
Turn 14: Lara loots remaining underwater chest, Ricki loots locked chest. All move to room 2, Kamau interposes with armour and shield so we end past the rats.
Turn 15: All move to room 1, Kamau Interpose, girls kill rat pile. Worst case, the dire rats and rat left the flooded lever room and stack up for 10 enemy attack in this room, which triggers Dauntless. We end near exit, hopefully with a survivable set of enemies in the room.
Turn 16+: If combat would be lethal, we leave. Otherwise, Kamau Interpose and girls kill rats until we can collect tails.
I didn’t realize, but if flooding areas causes rats to run to the surface, we could be in trouble; adding the rat pile to room 2 would leave too much for Kamau to handle.. Hopefully they’re just washed away. If necessary, Kamau can drink the brandy to go up to 8 defense if that avoids death, even if that fails the dungeon. If we put trust in perfect attack splitting, then altogether we have 12 defense (4 from shields, 2 from armour, 3 from Kamau, 2 from Ricki with Proficiency, 1 from Lara).
If any of the chests contain defensive items, our chars could even have more than the 12 you listed, but only with the “perfect attack splitting” you mentioned.
Anyways, thanks for the projection for the following turns.
On a slightly note: I’m really glad we didn’t go after the immediate area around the rat king (even if he would have dropped a crown and therefore 100% of 1 more treasure from him), nor the “three chest area” in the entrance room. We got enough trouble as it is with the “free” chests. ^_:^*
Keeping my fingers crossed that we a) don’t need to use the booze and b) get 2 more items that count as “treasure”, so all our chars will get a skill/level up (really curious what options Lara will get) and the bond level between Ricki and the other two increases, as well.
Maybe, to be on the safer side we could put some conditional attacks into turn 15, like have Lara and Ricki kill one dire rat each (if dire rats are around), while Kamau interposes?
The 5 (rat pile) + 2 (dire rat) + 2 (second dire rat) + 1 (regular rat) = 10 damage would still be enough to trigger Kamau’s dauntless (if he has one leather armour and the shield equipped, he’s on 6 Def, leaving 4 HP worth of damage, the exact amount he has now), BUT with the dire rats killed (Lara with longsword can one-shot one of them and Ricki with boosted rat fang should be able to one-shot the other one), the remaining regular rat and rat pile deal 6 damage per round, which Kamau should be able to continuously absorb (as long as we keep armour and shield on him).
Ricki then can continue to one-shot regular rats (each turn as necessary, should more spawn after she killed the one from level 3 in the entrance room), while Lara can lay into the rat pile (with longsword or great-sword, if we want to risk that; it’s worth 3 gold when sold).
In order to pull that off, though, we would need to pay close attention to get the inventories sorted out correctly, since we don’t have any more wiggle room for error. (e.g. Ricki would have to have the rat fang dagger AND a rat tail on her, in order to one-shot a dire rat.)
If the regular rats (and/or rat pile) from the “3 chest area” in the entrance room have somehow made it to the top level in addition to the dire rats and regular rat from level 3 in that same room (connected via rat tunnel), we’re majorly screwed. I dunno if we could even get past them alive somehow.
But I think that’s not likely to happen. They are trapped behind a grate, after all.
I don’t think any rats behind grates will cause us trouble, I’m only worried about the ones going through tunnels.
Maybe, Lara can be sent to clean up Plague rat + 2 rats (one with magic shot, others with longsword) in room 2 before some “wet reinforcement” from lower levels arrived?
Also, I thing Kamau should give currently obtained treasure to someone another (before getting the last remorse point).
I’m fairly sure without a grate (or an interposing Kamau) stopping them, the remainder of the rats of the group you mentioned would attack Lara, even if she uses her ranged magic spell on one of them (heck, even the head of the dead regular rat was still able to “attack” Ricki in the locked chest/ratpile/rat mini room in room 3). Since plague rat has 3 attack, regular rat 1 each, that would be 5 attack incoming on Lara, and with our current equipment she can have 4 Def tops (one innate, one from leather armour, two from the shield). So that would be another HP lost and another point of remorse for Kamau, therefore this is NOT a good idea.
Besides, the only potential “wet reinforcements” in room 2 are beaver rats, who as far as we have seen up to now seem to be quite happy to stay in the water and more importantly, even on the level that thave have been before. Look at the two near the lever. They are not keeping on level of the water surface. I very much doubt that these would climb at a latter point.
The whole idea of (other) rats possibly moving between levels (towards the top, where there is still air) in this game stems from the fact that in real life while rats definitely know how to swim, they are (contrary to beavers) not explicitly known to dive a lot and/or dwell in the water itself (or rather in structures, they themselves erected in water). Which would make beavers – in game – staying put, while submerged in water somewhat logical, but with rats (also in game), it’s kind of a wildcard how they will react to the danger of possibly drowning.
1) I think that “flying” rat head is something very unusual (made especially for Ricki and because it was killed by thrown sword) and Venomous attack is not something which leads to creature body separation. So one rat can be taken down BEFORE it can attack Lara (including flying head attack )))) So 4Atk via 4Def – that is OK
2) By “wet reinforcement” I meant 4 rats and a rat pile from room 1. Where will they swim when there is no air? Only to room 2 and then to the highest point of the room where previously mentioned Plague rat + 2 rats are located.
I think that locked grate can be passed by rats without any problem. Only a pile can possibly stuck.
Upd. Sorry, I forgot about the rat pile from room 3. Where will it go when there is no air? To room 2 via the hole…
If rats want to live then we need to start cleaning our way to surface before turn 15.
1) LSN has made clear multiple times that -all combat actions- happen at the -same- time, the “rat head” was just the latest example. King Marth actually mentioned another example in his comment for D4T8: https://dungeoneyes.com/dungeon-4-turn-8/#comment-3383
So it is NOT OK, Lara will lose another HP
2) I think the likelihood of rats changing rooms (from 1 to 2) is not very high, even if they were able (which we don’t know) to squeeze through the grate.
The only times we had enemies move between rooms was the wandering drunks in dungeon 2 (which we were TOLD beforehand that they would be moving) and the guard and dog that entered to come look for Kamau (which was introduced with a “cut scene” and which also makes sense for them to move through the dungeon) and the faithless in the abandonned chapel (which was a boss that was also introduced with a “cut scene”). All other enemies have been immobile.
The reason behind this may include (but not be limited to) the following:
Giving all enemies the ability to change rooms makes the dungeon unnecessary complicated (for LSN to “master”/track) and it would also make it very hard for us to make any predictions (so it would increase difficulty level of the dungeon by an unreasonable amount, because clusters of enemies randomly congregating can very quickly spell TPK for us).
There was information about wolf spider:
2)
https://dungeoneyes.com/dungeon-3-ricki-level-up/#comment-2718
So rats are able to run to next room if there is some danger.
Good point about the wolf spider being able to chase rats.
I’m still pretty convinced they can’t pass the grate (or else it would have been too difficult for us to deal with the present rat pile (5 attack) plus 4 regular rats (1 attack each) resulting in a whopping 9 incoming damage).
But with no way to know for sure, we’ll have to wait and see how the rats will react.
Still, picking a course of action that will definitely (we have results of multiple similar experiments to go by) result in one more HP lost on Lara (and therefore no skill up for Kamau because of remorse) is in my opinion not worth it to postpone/avoid things that might or might not happen.
EDIT:
The way I see it is like this: the rats all somehow got INTO the dungeon, too, on ways that we might never learn about. I think it is likely that they could leave the same way, too, once the water gets too high.
(The drenching of this section of the sewers and it subsequently getting filled again was described as a periodic event by Paws if I remember correctly. Therefore it would be logical that the rats that are alive now have learned about this in the past and have found ways not to drown, according to the darwin principle. The rats who didn’t find ways not to drown are not alive anymore. 😉 )
Well, Lara really can be hurt somehow…
So some other character can start the process (kill at least 1 rat).
And yes. I agree. It will be great if rats know other ways to leave flooded dungeon
We still have heavy cannons (Venomous Barrage).
Turn 15 in room 1: all rats below top level with scuba sets. I want to see the image!
Maybe some chests are cleverly disguised entry/exit points? Or just rat holes are behind chests? We only move the “red puzzle chest”.
1)
Well, I though it was a strange incident.
OK, then tell me please, why using Venomous Sting or throwing sword – that is “simultaneous combat” even when we using ranged attacks.
But when:
That is OK to kill 3 beavers (with ranged attack, am I correct?))) and get no hits in response?
I think that if you kill (or somehow affect) a target at a distance so that it can’t fight back – then it really can’t. Except “flying rat head”, of course.)))
From HOW TO PLAY – RANGE AND COMBAT AREAS:
It is possible for multiple groups or areas to exist within the same room, or even for different groups in different areas to be fighting each other at long range.
So I think that if we fight at long range with someone who has got no range weapons then they do 0 damage to you in range combat. They can go to melee, but if they are already dead… well, I think then they can’t do this (See my example with sun sphere and 3 beavers)
P.S. They can’t unless they are dead because they are undead, but not because of your long range shot)))
Lara could get HURT by Plague rat + 2 rats in room 2, Remorse Point for Kamau, his Remorse triggers, very bad. Even ranged attack is not safe, because the rats could decide to not sit there and get slaughtered but to attack Lara. Alternative: If looting underwater takes a turn, then while Lara loots the third chest, Kamau (with proper defensive equipment and longsword) could try to kill the plague rat. The group could not hurt him, and even if he misses: no harm done. Better than chilling for a turn anyway. But that all depends on how much time we really need for the actions and what we get from the chests and what else happens.
I wrote an answer above.
But it is possible to risk in another way by sending Kamau (turn 13, with his 50% chance to hit) and take down Plague rat (with longsword).
Then Lara (with her 100% chance to hit) can do the rest.
Additionally: If Ricki throws away the set of thieves’ tools (DON’T!), in turn 13 or 14 Lara needs to drop one set of thieves’ tools at the locked chest. And we need to remember to later pick up the items again, which Ricki is going to drop at the top floor.
For turn 13… instead of dashing, Ricki could kill a rat since she’d have 5 def. Could still move and loot next turn.
This is on the assumption plague rats are just bigger and don’t have a %chance to do extra though
“on the left of the top floor”, specifically: but still in the middle room [because we do not want to move to the top level left room but need the movement to go through the rat hole again].
“Open the chest with the tools”, additionally: and keep those tools!!! [I know that telling her technically does not make a difference, but nevertheless.]
“Kamau: Interpose”, additionally: give Imperial Reserve Brandy to Lara [as suggested and given reasons for by Flame].
“Kamau and Lara: Stay in air supply” or at least return heads into air before end of turn.
Speaking of freaky off chances, I think it’s more likely that opening an underwater chest will risk suffocation than the beaver damaging the shield. If that was a risk, it really should have been hinted on turn 7 when they were hit.
I don’t think either case will happen, though.
If I understood things right, we want Kamau to loot an underwater chest (after the beaver bite the dust) and return to the water surface in one turn. If he loses one HP, that is bad, but not fatal, and Lara will not loot and not loose HP and not trigger Remorse. If looting underwater chests doesn’t bind people underwater for one turn, no HP is lost, and we can send in either Kamau or Lara or both. Testing (send Kamau, not Lara) costs Lara one turn, but better save than sorry. About the shield: If Kamau interposes and Lara kills the beaver in one turn, it should be save. – I also think danger of drowning damage is more likely than danger of beaver biting the shield.
Another Venomous Sting (or sword attack) should finish off the Beaver and it’s going to ignore Kamau because it’s more interested in Lara’s Wood Shield. He’s free to loot while she finishes it off then they can both loot next turn.
Ricki: Get the Lockpicking Tools and drop the Rat Tails then go back to open the chest.
Kamau: Get air if you haven’t, loot a chest, and get back to air. if you can
Lara: Finish Him!
For the record, under my current assumed stats it will take two more Venomous Sting casts due to Defense, while the longsword will be enough on its own despite the underwater penalty since damage has been dealt.
With 3 HP and 1 Defense, then 4 damage in one turn will kill, but 4 damage across two turns will leave 1 HP left.
Maybe not relevant right away, but if that gate to the rat king is closed, couldn’t Lara snipe at them a few times? It’s not like they can return fire. It’d take a long time to do all the damage needed to kill them, but it might make things easier if/when we do open it.
Strictly speaking, we don’t expect they can fight back. However, we aren’t going to be able to do enough in the time we have left to make any difference, and we have useful actions available for Lara right now.
It’s also not completely impossible for an unknown enemy like the King Rat to do something unexpected, like how the rat pile released extra rats.
If we wanted to do the rat king, we needed to commit the turn the grate opened to let us into the third room. It’s no longer realistic without Lara spending multiple corruption on venom barrages. Sting won’t accomplish much in the time we have left. And even if we wanted to choose that, Ricki would get stuck underwater for a turn hitting the lever to let Lara and Kamau out. Which would max Kamau’s remorse as things stand.
And as KingMarth says, it’s an enemy with unknown abilities. Engaging it has a risk of the unexpected attached.
The beaver wants to destroy Laras wooden shield. Kamau should probably interpose instead.
Note: This may mean beavers focus their attacks on people wearing wood-ish things.
Maybe, it’s like a cheese for rats. They eat it and don’t touch others for a while…