Dungeon 13 Turn 13
————
While Amadeusz continues his healing, Lara picks up and drinks the potion of ectoplasm from off the ground. It is the worst thing she’s ever tasted, and she once took a bite out of a fellow drider. She recovers a total of 6 HP, but her maximum HP is also reduced by 2 until the end of the dungeon.
Cordy inspects the open treasure chest. It blocks the ladder that leads to the area below. They consider moving it, but then remember they have four little sidekicks, and they order the little mushrooms to move it instead because it’s cute.
Ricki picks up the staff. Looks like it has 3 charges left.
Lara quickly goes to check out the room to the left. Nothing much to see.
Lara: try to open the door. Move left if it opens
Amad: shift to wolf
Ricki: move left. Lens the owlbear. Move right and try to fit inside the red tube. See what’s down there
Cordy: pickup the cannister. And if you can’t, pick up the bomb instead. Drop the wand of poison to make room
This plan is for working towards killing owlbear. We need more space so using lens, bomb and torch should help. Amad and Lara can deal with wisps next turn as well while Cordy and Ricki plant the bomb
Are we absolutely sure that Ricki cannot use Case on the chest that is in the Death Owlbear’s sealed room by standing on the ladder immediately to the right of that chest? Her Case ability only specifies that the chest needs to be “nearby” and does not specifically say whether or not it can work through a wall (for a character that can see through walls anyway). I find it mystifying that Ricki would be able to see through walls, use Case on enemies through walls, use Case to see through the walls/lid of a chest, but not not be able to use Case to see what is in a chest that is just on the far side of a wall. If we are not absolutely sure I’d rather see Ricki try to use Case first (remembering to specify avoiding the traps).
Case: As an action can identify all items an enemy in the same room carries, even if some items are not visible. Once per dungeon can identify contents of a nearby chest without opening it.
I think I’m missing something. Ricki cannot attack through walls (either with missile weapons or by melee) but she can see through walls and is specifically allowed to use Magic Lenses through wall by the description on the Magic Lens and allowed to use Case on enemies through walls by the description of the Case ability. While Ricki could not engage the Death Owlbear in combat (either ranged or melee) while standing on the ladder to the immediate right of it, it and the chest behind it would technically be within melee range, which generally seems to be about a quarter screen. I still don’t understand why people seem to be so sure that Ricki’s Case would not work on that chest behind the Death Owlbear if she was standing on the ladder just to the right of it.
It wouldn’t be in melee range, because there’s a wall between her and the chest. If she can’t actually hit it in melee, it’s not melee range.
I thought “melee range” was a distance that corresponds to about a quarter of a screen (though somewhat flexible) horizontally and roughly on the same level vertically (something the character could reach or climb to), not something that is defined by whether a target is a valid target for a melee attack that turn. Once a character or enemy melee attacks a target the two are placed together in close proximity that can be called “melee range”
Ricki’s Case ability doesn’t say “a chest within melee range” or “a chest that would be a valid target for a melee attack” or perhaps even more clearly, “a chest that, if it had a stationary guardian sitting on top of it, the guardian could melee attack Ricki when she uses her Case ability”, it just says “nearby” and it doesn’t specifically say that she cannot Case a chest through a wall, even though she cannot melee (or missile) attack through a wall. I think we are interpreting the wording about “nearby” differently. I understand how you came to your conclusion but the logic seems convoluted and counterintuitive to me and seems to fly in the face of how Ricki’s abilities to see through walls work.
From your interpretation of the wordings, Ricki needs to be standing next to a chest with no intervening obstacles like walls or floors to Case it, which would mean that her Case ability for chests is only useful if the chest is unguarded (or has a weak guardian that can be ignored) but either locked (or perhaps triple locked) or trapped and we want to know if opening it is worth potentially expending the Thieves’ Tools and/or the trap damage. That seems like a very weak and almost worthless ability for something that takes a valuable action to use and can only be used ONCE per dungeon. Basically just, “spend an action to see if it is worth risking throwing away Thieves Tools to get what is inside”. If that’s all Case is for chests then that part of the Case ability is not especially useful.
From how I interpret the wordings (and have faith in Ricki’s special X-ray vision abilities), Ricki could probably not use her Case ability on the chest behind the Skeletitan while on the same floor as the Skeletitan without getting into melee range of the Skeletitan and being subject to a potential attack by it. However she might be able to Case it from directly below, possibly needing a tall character to lift her closer to the ceiling to be closer to that chest.
Let me ask you this, IF we were to use a bomb to open that sealed compartment that the black Owlbear is in, could Ricki THEN use her Case ability on that chest while standing safely on the ladder directly to the right of the chest, because then the Owlbear and/or chest would be a valid target for a melee attack (although Ricki would have to run around up over and then down into the now blasted open compartment to actually melee attack the Owlbear and/or chest)? Would her using her Case ability after the sealed compartment has been opened automatically result in Ricki being placed into melee combat with the Owlbear, regardless of where in the room we specified she stand (such as on the ladder directly to the right of the chest)?
Are we just assuming how things will work based on our interpretations of some confusing wording? Have we ever actually tried to Case a chest that is just on the far side of a wall? Has the GM specifically told people that Casing chests does NOT work though walls no matter how close the chest is on the screen?
Case: 1)As an action can identify all items an enemy in the same room carries, even if some items are not visible. 2)Once per dungeon can identify contents of a nearby chest without opening it.
Case has two parts. The first part uses language that implies it can be used “at range”, which is defined as being able to draw a straight line between the character and the target without the line crossing through an obstacle like a solid wall. Ricki is really cool though and has Dungeon Eyes, which lets her break the obstacle rule sometimes. This is why she can Magic Lens enemies through walls while Lara had to put herself at risk of getting hit to lens the Solar Guardian earlier.
The second part does not use language that implies it can be used “at range”. It ignores the straight line between character target rule entirely. It says “Nearby”, which means the range mostly relies on context, but generally means something that we can physically touch or reach. We can’t reach through solid walls without some special ability. In another universe this comic would be called Dungeon Hands and would be a way more surreal experience.
We don’t need the GM to specify casing chests does not work through walls no matter how close the chest is on the screen, because we have examples of other “at range” and “nearby” abilities that don’t break that rule.
You would not argue that if Ricki were trapped behind a solid wall that she could share her Grit with everyone else on the other side of it, would you? Or that Kamau could’ve attacked the lightning Magicrow that was directly beneath the deathly Owlbear with only a solid floor between them and Cleave through the floor to hit the Owlbear, right?
In short, the abilities do what they say they do.
Actually I think the best comparison I can give is reading notes. Ricki can’t read notes through walls or from afar, even with Dungeon Eyes. She has to get… Nearby, or within melee range of one to read it. This we have explicit confirmation on.
If you really want to try to pick up the cannister (wisp container) containing the purple wisp (so that Lara can try to make it into a pet later?!?), then Amad is probably the best choice to try it since he can immediately place it on Golly (who has one inventory space available) and Golly’s inventory slots can hold items of any weight so it wouldn’t matter if the wisp container weighed 2 or 3 or 8. At least that is the way that I understand things.
I’m not sure what we’d do with a wisp container with a purple (poison) elemental wisp. Is there a plan of what we would like to try to do with it if we can get it or are we just experimenting? The only thing I can think of trying with it would be to put it in the red tube — where it might get sucked away to that bottom-left room, but if that happened then a non-yellow wisp showing up down there could alert the Guards and “Justicar Enforcer” there that something is wrong in the ‘factory’ and cause the Turn 20 patrol to come investigating.
I see your point about Case. Indeed, one part says about “room”, and the other part says “nearby”But I would STILL try at least once to ask Ricky to do it remotedly, like we have it here. Almost perfect setup to check it. Stand on the ladder to the right, be as near the chest as possible, but through the wall, and try.Why? Because the “how to play” leaves a small leeway on how to understand “nearby”, we don’t 100% know until we try, and it would be so much more useful as compared to limited touch-range version while still not game-breaking in anyway.And, if it’s so obviously not-possible, then we might try asking Ricky to just CONSIDER it and maybe we will get a line “nah can’t see it well enough” or “but its too far” and do something else instead.The worst that happens is we lose an action, we gain nothing in-game, but we get a pretty strong “proof” on what “nearby” means in such context.Aaahh, nevermind. The whole idea was based on “nearby” and “DungeonEyes can see through walls”. And while the former may be OK, the latter is most probably not. Ricky’s DungeonEyes ability explicitly says what it does. This is, of course, TheAbility constructed for us to be able to play at all. What it does is clear: See the whole room. See party stats. That’s it. It doesn’t “see through walls” like SuperMan an XRay vision, which would add some reason to try to be “closer to the chest, and see it through the wall”. With DungeonEyes, Ricky sees what we see. The room like we see it. Most probably, when sho’s moving, her image of the room doesn’t change, just like we see it the same way regardless of where she stands. And most probably, she cannot “zoom in” and focus on the chest to see it better with DungeonEyes. So, yeah, I think “Case” requires melee-range so Ricky can see the chest with her own non-Dungeon eyes.
Holy crap.
I was just typing a question about ‘shroom 45 and then it hit me.
Protect the little guy at all costs.
I noticed that too,a monobrow & bright yellow eyes.The CURRENT PARTY page gives no indication as to wether that’s just a cosmetic change,or if it is more significant.
I don’t get it. I see it is drawn a bit differently, but why is that important?
It has Fortyfive’s face.
Oh does it?
Kill it now.
Never do this.
Lord Ardon will hear about this, have no doubt.
What?Why!?
Whoa. Now I see it, thanks!
Oh,another reference to WillSaveWorldForGold?
Yep
Lara: try to open the door. Move left if it opens
Amad: shift to wolf
Ricki: Use lockpicks on big skelly chest. Drop torch if need more space. Go in and out of the rathole just to double check it leads to the other we saw and end turn near lever.
Cordy: Pickup/inspect the wisp canister to see how it could be used. Drop bandolier near rope if need space. Move left.
Deathbear is optional, I’m paranoid about the uber justiciar boss we saw in the bottom left corner and would like to save our last lens for them instead. Maybe we can lens bear if we find another lens?
The previous big skelly failed to go through 8 defense and there wasnt even a “barely avoid damage” or anything so not really any danger there. And we saw wisps need a ! turn before attacking.
Ideas for next turn:
Wolf: Use holy crow stone on wisp group
Everyone else can progress new room.
Or Lara can come back to sting holy wisp.
I like having Ricki scout through hole but I really want to know what the red pipe is for.
I’m also hesitant to use picks on skeletitan chest as the last locked chest was kinda meh and we may need both sets for the door (if key doesn’t work) and the grate below that has 2 chests.
Honestly though, these are still actions well spent so I’m on board
That hole in the back wall does not line up with the one we saw before in the center room. There was a discussion about how the holes line up and where they might lead back on D13T10 see https://dungeoneyes.com/dungeon-13-turn-10/#comment-15814
RE: The previous big skelly failed to go through 8 defense and there wasnt even a “barely avoid damage” or anything so not really any danger there.
Are you referring to the Skeletitan at D12T26? “The entire party works together to destroy the skeletitan. This thing isn’t a boss anymore, just a regular bad guy, so there’s no cool fight scene or anything. They just roll over it.” I looked back at that but it didn’t say which character the Skeletitan attacked and failed to damage so it could have been Wolf (who’d just tanked it the prior turn to loot the chest behind it) who I think was Def 9 there in the clear water (or was he -1 Def due to swimming? I had a lot of difficulty figuring out the mechanics of all the penalties that were going on in D12).
Ricki is only Def 7 and could take 1 damage from ignoring the Skeletitan, plus if the wisps happen to fire on her after she has already been attacked by the Skeletitan (which they probably shouldn’t since they haven’t done a “!” yet) she could die and the game would end. This looks to me like we could be setting ourselves up for the same sort of thing that happened on D12T6 where Lara was attacked at range without any warning, but I’m probably just being overcautious.
Amad didnt have both the greaves and gauntlets equipped that time so he only had 8 def back then.
I think D12T6 was because we walked into melee range of members of their group(the fish). Here we stay at range and we saw wisp groups spend a turn “!”-ing us first.
RE: Wolf: Use holy crow stone on wisp group
Note that if only one character attacks all 5 wisps with a ranged attack then that character might take a 5×3=15 Atk ranged attack in retaliation. An Atk:15 won’t kill Wolf (15-9=6 damage and he currently has 9HP) but it will require him to ‘waste’ 2 turns eating Raw Meat to recover (unless he can eat 2 or 3 meat in the same turn, which I got the impression he couldn’t back in the Poisoned Well). If we run up and melee attack unsuspecting enemies by surprise they get to attack in return even if haven’t done a “!” yet and even if they die and the situation seems to be the same with ranged/thrown weapons (see D4T8), I don’t see why the wisps would be any different just because we’re using a ranged attack on them, my expectation is that if they are attacked before they have given a “!” warning they will retaliate immediately.
Also, I’m not sure that the Beam of Light Crowstone can AOE affect all 5 wisps, see https://dungeoneyes.com/dungeon-13-turn-11/#comment-15859 and allow me to clarify more. The Beam of Light and the Static Bolt crowstones have different wording in their Item descriptions. While I thought it was clear how the Static Bolt would work and it could affect all 5 Wisps (2 damage), I was uncertain about the results we’d get from using the Beam of Light and what exactly “in a straight line” means. The beam of light looked fairly narrow in the artwork at D13T4 and the 5 wisps are rather spread out. Maybe it has all been clarified on Discord but I advise at least considering the possibility that the Bolt of Light might not be a true AOE but rather a narrow beam that damages everything it passes through.
CROWSTONE, BEAM OF LIGHT
Consumable
Deals 3 holy damage in a straight line. Provides light.
Weight 1, Cost 10
CROWSTONE, STATIC BOLT
Consumable
Deals 2 lightning damage in an area at range.
Weight 1, Cost 9
Actually, there is ONE proof for why it COULD work. While attacking a non-“!” enemy in melee mode surely grants them a counterattack, unless some ability says otherwise, the ranged mode is … a bit blurry. I think it was just artistic effect, but heck, facts.
This one time when we used a grenade-like feature. I think it was technically a ranged attack. I think it was in Cathedral, and I think we used a cracked holy bell ball. Oh, found it – D3T48 – We rolled it from a far, and it hit some enemies, like bowling and pins. But it exploded and did AoE damaged, a bit unlike bowling. Oh, I found it, in next dungeon, D4T3. First of all, very important – even if it was “physically possible” to roll the ball from RoomA into RoomB, Ricky actually had to enter the RoomB and roll the ball on entering. Enemies were blown away, and didn’t rush to Ricky, and flying head didn’t bite Ricky either. The enemies clearly had an easy way to rush towards her, open space, clear pass, the same level, even no ladders. The only thing there was that the enemies did not have “!” and Ricky made ranged attack, not melee.
Anyways, I think that:
(A) in melee-vs-melee, enemies always get to counterattack, “!” or not”!”(B) in ranged-vs-ranged, enemies always get to counterattack, “!” or not”!”(C) in melee-vs-ranged, enemies do get a chance to counterattack if only there is unobstructed in-room path from their place to the place of ‘archer’
(A) we do all the time
(C) I think that despite the example of holy-ball-grenade, there is no way to ‘surprise attack’ melee guys by ranged attacks. On that D4T3 there is a HIGH possibility that Ricky simply had so much DEF that it didn’t matter if those critters attacked her or not. Unlike D4T6-D4T8 where it did matter. Note that D4T8, the rats did not have “!”. Ricky entered the hole earlier, the rats were even facing her, but they did not get “!”. So D4T8 shows a “ranged attacker tried to surprise attack a melee-range enemy who had no “!” marker and who was in melee-range to the shooter”.
(B) actually, I’m not sure if we EVER got into only-ranged battle.. but I don’t see why a ranged-capable enemy would not retaliate
LSN said on discord that it can hit everything in a normal corridor so it 100% affect all 5(more like 4 since 1 is immune but still).
In retrospect, now that I’m finally going back and reading what happened after Turn 13 (when I gave up on trying to play)… “100% affect all 5”, see https://dungeoneyes.com/dungeon-13-turn-15/ for how the Beam of Light Crowstone actually worked — it is a literal straight line and only got 3 of the Wisps.
I THINK RICKY CAN DIE HERE.
This is a very bad plan in several ways.
—
DO NOT under any circumstances try to open the chest and move afterwards. This means passing the skeletitan TWICE. Once, from left-of-titan to right-of-titan, to the chest. Second time, from right-of-titan to left-of-titan, to move away and do more things. Especially because you ordered Ricky to end turn elsewhere, so she has to move back. This MAY mean that Ricky will be hit twice. This may end VERY BAD. Especially because you then ask her to also try scouting the hole, and THEN get the turn elsewhere. This means going into a possibly-unknown room (thus freezing Ricky there, she won’t be damaged anymore this turn at least), or, if we get to a known-room, this means passing the wisps TWICE. First pass should give them “!”, but on the second pass they may stay with this “!” or they may get to shoot at her, since she moved out and in, so a monster with “!” may shoot her at “entering the room”.
Hit from Titan on the way “to chest”, plus hit from Titan on the way “from chest”, plus any hits from the Wisps on the way “from tunnel”, this can end VERY BAD.
—
I like your plan, it checks A LOT of mechanics that will be important for future precise planning. EXCEPT for Ricky doing too much at one time.
If we want to check narrowly-double-pass-enemy, use someone with higher def, and/or not game-ending Ricky.
If we want to open that chest safely, split that into 2 turns. One turn to run there and open it. Second turn to go back. This way titan’s attacks will be split over two turns, and both will happen at full DEF.
If we want to go scout the crack-on-the-wall, if we want to try “go and get back”, it most probably will end up safely, with RIcky being stuck in a “newly explored room” thus can’t exit, but juuust in case, let’s do it in separate turn, when Ricky is not damaged by Titan.
If we just want to explore the crack on the wall, we can do it on the way “back from chest”, just do not try to “get back from crack in the wall” to not get the wisps any chances of shooting back. Just go into the hole, and return on next turn.
Enemies dont get infinite actions per turn just because we pass them that many time lol.
We did this “pass, loot, pass” thingy tons of time before and they are still limited to one action per turn.
Like, look what happened this turn for example https://dungeoneyes.com/dungeon-5-turn-27/
That is very interesting. In that case, when, let’s say, we have a corridor and a single guard in the middle of it, out whole party runs past him simply ignoring the guy.
I always assumed he will get a free attack at each character who runs past him.
Are we at this point sure this will not happen and that he will get only a single free attack on a single person out of the crowd that runs past? Because that would be a direct “no unlimited actions” consequence, and that could be very very helpful sometimes.
wisps are aggressive, they can follow ricki next turn if they see her, don’t go near them unless we want to fight them!
WTF that kills Ricki if wisps aggro!
Skeletitan and 50% of wisps is enough to kill her!!!
Lara: move left, try to open the door and move left if it opens.
Ricki: move left, avoid traps, try to Case that chest behind the black Owlbear while standing on the ladder directly to the right of it. You can do it! Go on, prove those doubters wrong!
Cordy: pickup/inspect the wisp container with the purple wisp to see how it could be used.
Amad: if Cordy cannot pick up the wisp container by themselves then work together and put it on Golly (this is in case the container takes two people to move/lift since there were two unarmed Guards standing there), otherwise shift to Wolf.
I am voting for this not because I think Case can work through walls, but because it isn’t outright suicidal like the other plan. I’d rather waste an action trying Case than risk 15 damage on Ricki.
Lara: open door move left
Cordy: move 1 room left, pass the 2 traps
Ricki: move 1 room left, show Cordy the traps
Amand: move 1 room left, change into wolf
REASONS:
a) I want everyone to be in this room so next turn we can move left to act there if we want, it depends on what Lara see.
b) if we decide that we want to avoid the left room next turn we send Lara and Cordy 1 room down to kill the last wisp to create a mushroom for Lara (Cordy sting from far + Lara poison) while Wolf + Ricki go right, Wolf attack skeleton to lure his hits, Ricki bypass him and unlock that chest. THIS IS THE SAFEST WAY TO DEAL WITH THIS CHEST. We have lots of meat to heal wolf but lake healing on everyone else, we need him to tank all dmg.
Killing a wisp will not create any mushrooms, wisps are magic/elemental, they are not organic creatures.
NEW OWLBEAR FRIEND! prioritize getting to new owlbear friend. They’re probably the new party member we need to recruit this dungeon. We should approach him calmly, one by one so as to not spook him. Make no threatening gestures and leave all weapons and armor outside the room
Lara: try to open the door. Move left if it opens
Amad: shift to wolf
Ricki: Use lockpicks on big skelly chest. Drop torch if need more space. Go JOIN AMADEUSZ AND DONT COME ANYWHERE NEAR THOSE WISPS.
Cordy: Pickup/inspect the wisp canister to see how it could be used. Drop bandolier near rope if need space. Move left.
Same as Kat’s plan, but doesnt risk Ricki death from combined attack of megaskelly and wisps